Question: Should Jazz Players Ever Play for Free?
April 20th, 2008
If you are in a hurry, simply watch the video and leave your 2 cents via commenting below. Otherwise, I did write some background on this topic below the video.
This is how this all came about…
I recently did a poll of some of my subscribers, asking if they would like to see a place where we could go to exchange ideas on marketing our jazz groups – ideas that we could share on how to get more gigs and how to keep those gigs.
The response was amazing…over 85% said “yes” to the idea…that they would like a place to go to share marketing ideas for our jazz groups.
Rather than start a new site for this kind of thing, (ok, I’m cheap) I figured I could just use this blog space to get started talking about how we can market ourselves better as jazz players and jazz groups. Since you can now leave text, audio and video comments on this blog, I thought this would be a good “forum” to share ideas and such with other jazz players from around the world.
I don’t really know what its like in the rest of the world, but the United States is not the greatest place to be making a serious living playing jazz. You would think that people would respect the art form more than they do, but they don’t. I think Europe in general has a greater respect for what jazz is and what jazz improvisers actually do.
From what I can tell, most of us struggle to even get a jazz gig of any substance, then the age old question comes up and what is going through your head: “what is the minimum amount of money that I will accept for plying my craft – the thing that has taken me decades to master.”
I remember a friend of mine in Chicago a few years back lamenting to me that he was trying to book his quintet in some club, coffee houses, etc. and he had no luck in even getting a gig – for FREE. He actually could not convince club owners to let them play for free.
And these were great players too. Now that might be an extreme example depending on where you live in the world, but this always kind of bugged me. So now I throw this out to you guys.
What do you do when you market your jazz group?
Do you take whatever money you can get?
Do you demand a certain amount of money per player?
Do you ever take responsibility for marketing and getting more people into the club you are playing, or do you leave it up to the club owner to do that?
Now if you are strict “union” musician, this whole thing is a mute point. You look up what the union scale is and you demand that – cough up the dough or you simply won’t do the gig.
But does that kind of approach even work anymore?
Can the average club or restaurant owner in middletown America (or wherever) really afford to fork over $600 per night for a 6 piece jazz group?
And if they do, will patron pay $7-10 in cover charge just to get in the joint – before they even pay for food and drinks?
The only place that I would think can do this is in New York City, places like the Village Vanguard, the Bluenote, etc. But 99.99% of us are not going to be booked at the Vanguard anytime soon.
So here is the question, should we as jazz musicians ever play for free? And if so, what are the conditions of doing that? I can think of a few, but I would like to get your feedback on this topic.
Please watch the video above too, and then leave your text, audio or video comments below. If you know of any jazz musicians that might want to chime in on this topic, send them to this page. The more the merrier. I would like to get a good cross section of the jazz playing world to express their opinion on this one.
Once we get rolling, I think alot more topics will arise that we can discuss. If you have any suggestions for future conversations, please leave them in text, audio or video comments.
Leave a comment here (bottom of page)
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Hi,
playing for free ?? Yes but only once or twice a year for promotional gigs, friends, garden party etc..
People (business people specialy) get very fast in to the habit of having music for free(combo for free, big band for free, symphony orchestra for free even then). Playing for free is very dangerous direction.
Here in Eastern Europe (Croatia) was very hard to breaktrough and get this habit out of heads of local politicians (after socialism especially), and now since I play NO MORE GIGS for free I’m respected by the authorities and people attending our gigs. Once more playing gigs for free is very DANGEROUS direction where musician should go.
I’m much more respected today and I HAVE MORE GIGS !!!
Best wishes
Danijel
music director, low brass teacher Croatia
Many of us get together to play in local pubs for free just for the fun of it. I also run a ‘swing’ band which plays in a variety of locations and accepts a small donation to our funds.
Portsmouth, UK
The market for exclusive jazz gigs has all but dried up here on the west coast of Canada. We have some stellar jazz musicians who have to play all styles to make a living. Our band was a jazz combo which also became an R+B Band, a top 40 band, a swing band, etc. Whatever would pay, we would play. We would not play for less than $800 for the quartet. We were playing at least 3 nights per week at the major hotels. The clients who booked us for our jazz sets were people from large corporations who loved to have us play for their cocktails and dinner. They really appreciated what we were playing as they had some understanding of the jazz repertoire. We currently spend most of our time playing for student groups to teach them about playing jazz. We are all high school jazz educators so we try to use our talents to show the students what can be done and we try to perform annually at our local jazz festival which attract about 120+ jazz groups to it. We agreed that we would periodically do some other types of music in the latter part of the evening to extend the gig to 4 or 5 hours and get some really good pay. These gigs would get us about $1200 to $1500 for the quartet. I hope this information helps others. Keep swinging.
The only free gigs I would play (and I do) are benefits. The market here in Portland OR is ruined by very young, inexperienced “players” that will work for nothing or $25/night. Most of the club owners are not interested in quality and the ones who hire better groups (rare) are interested of course in the “draw”. I’ve played many gigs for the door in my life (over 50 yrs of professional jazz playing) and usually made out quite well (where I’ve been known).
I rehearse in my living room with my trio for free. That’s it.
Hi Jim,
I think we all know what every muso’s answer would be. If I were the president of the world of music, all muso’s should be paid for the work they do. However, things are not that cut and dry and one has to weigh and balance things based on what’s best for that moment in time.
Some gigs pay well, some a little and some nothing at all such as benefit concerts. In the latter two instances one considers the mileage gained from presenting your music to probably a new audience and the selling of your CD’s and merchandise.I’ve been booked for gigs that pay well whilst playing for free.
My philosophy is to play every gig as if it’s your last ’cause you never know who’s in the audience who can make a world of a difference in your life.
Khaya Mahlangu.
hi-
thanks for this great site and discussion.
i won’t comment on the topic because all the points have been well covered by the hundred plus people who responded already.
what i would like to say is- how great it is to see this ‘hot-button’ issue discussed in such a civilized and respectful way! I am in the Jazz Society of Santa Cruz County (Ca. USA) that has hundreds of musicians, pro and amateur. Our website once had a Bulletin Board that anyone could post to.
On this topic, playing for free, the comments got so hostile that we finally had to shut down the Bulletin Board altogether!
So congratulations on this blog! Our politicians could learn a lot from it about how to discuss issues on which there is disagreement.
best wishes
steve newman
This Blog site makes very interesting reading, particularly for a relatively new Band.
We are very fortunate in that we play regularly in a well known Nottingham Jazz pub. This came about because we were allowed to practice weekly in an “upstairs” function room. Then we were asked to “perform” in return for a drink. We drew in business for the pub. Now we perform the “top spot” Sunday Lunchtime Gig, maybe six times a year, and get paid.
We are an amateur Big Band and we employ professional Music Directors, and a female vocalist. So we don’t play for free, unless it’s a charity or publicity event which the whole Band agrees to.
Some members of our Band dep occasionally (for free)beyond the Band but we don’t particularly want lots more Gigs. There are useful ideas on this Blog site which will help us grow.
John A
We had a small bigband, but this one is finished because we can’t find any players around here. They are all windbands and classical music. But before we didn’t play for free. Now I play in a pop band and also not for free.It sounds strange to me, if the band is good you shouldn’t play for free.At the other hand a bigband is big, a lot of musicians and not every place or club can have it.But I found out years ago no money in playing Jazz. I used to play trombone in a funk jazz band, and now I play bassguitar in a popband, I got more money in a year by playing the bass than 10 years by playing jazz on trombone.If you are no teacher it is hopeless. The only reason you do it is because you enjoy it.
Well, i think we can play for free in the street, and also the people , if like it, help… but when you play for free in a bar , when others get money it´s wrong to let them abuse of that….not only with jazz musicians, also in music for movies they already have enough money for composers and musicians but a lot of them play the same game… giving the few they can!!!!
Also , as another musicians wrote, unfortunatelly a lot of people think if it´s free is ¨less quality¨… maybe only artist know the value and we have to teach the others the great value of music, even if they only can give money ;D…
Hope my english is good enought … you know ¨Don´t let me be missunderstood¨ hahaha
Liz
18 piece big band. 18 years organized. We currently play once a month at a nice venue for
dancers (we sneak in jazz stuff when we can get
away with it). Our deal is: over 70 at the gate and we get something. However, we get to use the facility for rehearsals once a week. So we
get something. Other than that we don’t play for
free unless for benefit although we only play about 4 gigs per year. We had a bar gig for a spell and played for $200. plus the “jar”, but
the owner went broke. We voted to be a dance
band and that is only way we see to make a buck. Jazz venues just don’t draw much (usually only other musicians). The young crowd
likes to dance to our music (mostly swing) but
there is a lot of competition for that also.
I have always told my students that nothing is more important than the art form itself; it’s about the music. Now that I am older, I select my performances carefully, and I do often perform for no cost, but I always pay my sidemen unless they refuse. You see, we do a lot of local gigs for the City of San Dimas, the Chamber and particularly the Senior Center. Now that I am retired, my playing is strictly for pleasure. I love to play and I don’t need the money.
That being said, I believe that like any other professional, performing artists have a special gift and deserve to be compensated at an appropriate rate. I encourage my students, ex-students and sidemen to be meticulous in their musical performances and to be businesslike in their interaction with folks who hire them. If you do not value yourself professionally, those that hire you will try to take unfair advantage.
My only conclusion, then is that each performer should consider the value of the performance, the audience, the employer/contractor, the venue, and the make-up of the performing group. Taking all pertinent factors into account, then he/she should make business-like decisions that are fair and equitable for all parties without mitigating the performers, the audience and the contractors importance. The solution, then becomes what is right and fair to all parties.
This is an important question, and I offer only my own opinion as it applies to my standard of ethics. Everyone should, indeed must, make those decisions in their best conscience and ethical reasoning.
Hi, in my opinion groups should not play for free unless it’s for a good cause or the band uses the gig as an opportunity to market itself.
The big band Jim mentioned playing at a “high end” club should be paid something, or at least be allowed to put out a tip hat.
We have a 13 piece big band that plays for free. We play at malls,nursing ,homes, parks and places like that. Sometimes ask for donations. Our mission is to try introduce jazz to this area. I just don’t think people and business would pay. Thank you for your info and website.
Hi
I have a big band and I’m not in favor of playing for free , however we have done that to promote the band , we now only play for weddings and other events that will pay a fee . I feel jazz musicians should be paid a fee for their services and talent , it’s a very difficult business but we should get some reward for for all the time and many hours of hard work put into it.
Thanks Jim. great topic. Playing for free may be better than playing for cheap! Your comment is correct though …. a club owner is in it to make money and a profit. Well it would make sense that a player is in it as well to make money and a living. There is no difference. The club owner has expenses….the musician has expenses. The club owner is not in it as a hobby nor should the musician. If the club is advertising “live music” and can’t make enough on the bar and kitchen to pay for the entertainment, seems that’s the wrong club for the band…time to move on. Playing for free is not how one makes a living.
Hi Jim.. I live 6 months in New York and 6 Months in Florida. I have both a quintet and a Big Band. We do on occassions play for free, if it is a charity or street fair where a proprietor is not making money. If you play for free at a club, the percieved value is a big Zero and will pretty much ruin chances of evr getting a paying gig there. And word does spread so other club owners won’t pay you either. Just my 2 cents…..
After I originally commented I clicked the -Notify me when new feedback are added- checkbox and now every time a remark is added I get 4 emails with the same comment. Is there any method you can take away me from that service? Thanks!
We have a septet, trio and big band in the Michigan Ohio area and we play for little or no money to market ourselves here. We will also play for a % of the take by the club owner or even for the cover charge. It’s pretty tough these days.
I also play in Panama with various groups and we usually work out a similar deal for money and/or refreshments.
Great use of alternative power, I would like to have something such as this.
I play in a swing/blues band and we almost never play for free. The guys in that band won’t walk out the door for much less than a hundred . But thats after being together for 10 years and building a local name at many, many venues. Then there is a local rock band trying to “make it” and I played with them some 20 times for free to help out. I don’t know that they will ever get a paying gig and if they do will it turn into casuals. As far as playing straight ahead jazz there are almost no venues featuring that in nor cal once you get out of San Francisco area. If I wanted to promote that kind of band I’d focus on high end house parties, or combining with a couple of other bands for 3 bands one set each for some kind of per man fee. Only other way to go is play for free at coffee shops, bars, open areas and beg for tips. I made more money for a 3 hour union gig in 1980 (104)that I do now for a 4 hour casual (100). But if I was serious about a beginning group I’d mimic the top earning corp band around here, Tommy Castro. He played everywhere for nothing or little for years. Got a huge email list and now gets 10K for a two hour show at a city parks festival or similar event. Basically as others have said, if it’ll pay for the venue, they will do it. but if they pay 300 and make 250 for the night only an idiot will or can do that for long. K
we do play for free occasionally and hope that those gigs result in paying gigs. We are in the Sacramento CA area and getting gigs that pay what they should $50-$100 per member for an hour or two is hard to get
Hi Jim, interesting question and I can see from other replies that we are all in the same boat,things aint what they used to be.
I am in 3 big bands, playing 4 or 5 times a week, mainly rehearsals, and subbing in others so I have got a good feel for the scene here in Toronto.
The bottom line here is not many big bands are paid for gigs and if they are it is usually $20 to $50 each. Small groups on the other hand are paid double that amount.
The other problem here is that there are so many bands that you take what you can get or you dont play. Some people are content to rehearse but others like myself enjoy the reaction from an audience.
One thing that seems to make a difference is having a manager who has the interest and the talent to get out and advertise and be able to talk to people face to face.
To answer the question, no we should not be playing for free unless it is for a charity, we are professionals and should be recognized as such.
Thats my rant for the day, thanks Jim.
Gord Munn
hii jim .
.
i m 21years old, indonesian , n i work at police music military .
i m sorry be4 , i still learning english
i tell u situation right there,,
our headmaster wants to make some commercial group like a chamber orchestra, wind orchestra, symphonic band , or a big band .
so ,, he push us to upgrade our skill became a profesional player .
He wants to make us as him moneymachine .
Cause in my country,, jazz are famous n very expensive there .
come to my country jim .
so many jazz event right here .
did u know about ‘java jazz festival’ ??
haha ,,
i have a dream to show there somedays,, _justadream_
thanks jim . .
Hello there:
I’m a 67 year old drummer who has done the whole yard stick of music over my lifetime. I’ve jobbed around with small trios, quartets, and many other gig musicians throughout my lifetime. In 1991, I joined a group “A Band for All Seasons” with which I played many jobs pro-bono so to speak. In about 1994, I was asked to join the Roland Cumberland Orchestra, an outgrowth of the Tall Cedars organization and played for many Masonic organizations in Washington, D.C. area. Some were again pro-bono and others paying jobs. Roland, sorry to say, passed away in 2011 and we lost a great leader and Mason. I am presently playing with the Rockville Swing Band which is associated with the Rockville Concert Band in Rockville, MD. Most of what we do is pro-bono for the community and nursing homes. Any money we earn goes to purchasing new music and supplies.
As with any groups. There is always the question of getting paid and being professional. Most community sponsored groups don’t have that many professional jazz type musicians, but try hard to learn the music and the style. It’s quite intimidating for many, but teaching concert musicians about Jazz is also tough. Getting them to listen to each other rather than just playing notes is themost difficult.
Getting gigs is tough also. Most places want either R&R, or Blues or Country that offer booze to sell. They are low paying and most likely you’ll get a meal for free. Paying gigs usually are in the Country Club set and are top shelf requiring good music with great looks.
Paul W Hassler, Rockville, MD.
SOMETIME ITS JUST A MATTER OF PLAYING FOR A REAL (AS OPPOSED TO SPOUSE, NEIGHBOR, LOCAL WINOS) audience. There are a couple monthly gigs around here that ask for volunteers for a couple hours once a month. We have done these with a placard in front of us, a stack of business cards and a comment to the audience that we play bars, clubs, goat ropings, Bar Mitzvahs, weddings, funerals, beer joints, and other posh, up scale gatherings and we mention our fee is verrrry reasonable. We regard free gigs as advertising. We are not shy about passing the hat or putting my tuba case out front with a bit of seed money sprinkled in it so they don’t think we’re just untidy.
We have akso played a few church gigs. These are a suprisingly good place to pick up paying playing gigs. As we all know, the difference between the Baptists and the Presbyterians is that the Presbyterians will speak when met at the liquor store. The Baptists by in bulk though and have more opportunities to hire a band. They don’t dance. Having sex while standing is too close to dancing so you got to watch for ‘em on the floor.
Thanks for the forum Big Jim!
Jim, I am a trumpet player in Arkansas. I currently play with 4 Big Bands and 1 combo. For the most part I get paid when we have gigs. The combo pays around $150 a man. 1 of the Big Bands pays at least $200 plus travel. One Big Band has a regular once a month gig at a hotel in Hot Springs, AR. It takes me 2 hours from home to get there and we usually get about $15 a man. So in essence that’s a free gig when you pay for gas. The other 2 Big Bands don’t pay any money…yet. They are working on it. So even in Arkansas there are places to play for pay. Thanks, Garry
Hi Jim,
Here in Ribeirao Preto, Brasil we have an University big band were students play whit some musicians from the Philarmonic and also some professional musicians that play for the pleasure of playing jazz. The purpose of our big band is to spread around the taste for jazz music, recruitng young students interested in it and showing to the people what is jazz, improvisations etc. Even tough sometimes the band plays in clubs, social events and in these cases there is a charge for the musicians. I am sure that musician must be paid! Unfortunately, electronic music has taken over the place of good music. Surprisingly the people are reacting very well, the audience increases at every presentation and we are now starting to have followers!
So I think we must focus our efforts in a kind of a musical reeducation . We cannot give up. Jazz is eternal, “fast food music”is sojourn
Hey Jim,
A lot of good comments so far. I live in west central Ohio in a relatively rural area. Unfortunately in this area there are few places to play unless you want to drive 50 miles to Columbus or Dayton. At the price people are willing to pay today, if they pay at all, it is not feasible to drive that far. I have also found that rates paid to musicians have not changed much over the last 50 years or so. Fifty years ago I was getting $200 for my 6 pc combo. Today you get much less than that. People would rather pay a DJ $350 than pay accomplished musicians even $25 per person for a combo. It’s even hard to get $50 – $100 for a single. So do I play for free. Only if it’s a friend or a charitable event. Now days I mostly play at nursing homes and senior centers as a single act. I can average $75-$100 for an hour gig and the audience is very appreciative. For the places that do pay I will in turn play 1 or 2 free gigs a year. That’s what I do and it works for me.
Have you all read the open letter from David Goldberg to LA club owners?
http://www.scribd.com/doc/78468650/La-Club-Owners#source:facebook
He nails it on the head: who wants to go to a club with no entertainment? Clubs which force the band to do the publicity, draw the crowd, take a percentage of door as payment, are primed for failure since the whole shooting match rests on the band. Good band = good crowd, good night, good sales. Bad or no band = bad crowd, etc. David suggests the equation should be, as it was in my early professional days (1980) in Western Canada, good club = good crowd, good night, good sales, long line of good bands trying to get in (or a lot of bad bands in their rightful place: improving in their basements).
What changed in my area (across the world, I think)? Recorded music. It was the law that live music had to be presented in certain types of beverage rooms. Hence, our little band traveled across Western Canada playing 12-night/2-week gigs constantly for the 3.5 years I was in the band. Some of the towns we played were tiny, pop. 10,000 or smaller, but they had 2 or 3 live music clubs. And each band member put $40 – $50 in their pocket each night after expenses. But during that time the law changed, the renos began, and soon some of the best live music rooms around had kickin’ stereo systems in them playing all the hits from cassette tapes. The clubs, I’m certain, were ecstatic about their one-time expenditures for stereo equipment and their tiny nightly DJ fees. Until, of course, people stopped coming.
We used to have a great original music room in town with 7 nights of music all year. I frequented the place because I knew I’d find original music, usually played well, sometimes inspiring. Lots of touring artists. One night a few years ago I showed up on a Thursday at midnight to find the door closed: no band. ?? um, no patrons, either. To this day, the number of live acts presented there, and the quality of and fees paid to same, are ever dwindling.
Do I play jazz gigs for free? Never. Even at church I get an honorarium. And for a fundraiser, my approach is simple: just pay me a percentage of the caterer’s fee… ain’t no caterer no where ever workin’ for free.
Thanks,
Roy Sydiaha, B.Mus.
Saskatoon, SK, Canada
Roy: Thanks for the comments, and especially the link to that document of Dave Goldberg’s! That is a classic, and so true.
When it comes down to it, club owners have no clue of simple principles of marketing. They wouldn’t think of hiring a terrible chef, then insisting the chef bring in patrons every night. But that is exactly what they do with music! I think I will post that article to the blog. Thanks again.
If we had business bow out of buying our democracy they would be offering us an authentic reason to vote and save our democracy at the same time. $20 off of nikes are not going to create critical citizens, an honest democracy would. I’d like to incentivize kids to get good grades… but I would like to fix our democracy.