Hi Jim,
I’m out here in Los Angeles and I do play for free at a local spot in town. The funny thing is that even though I don’t always play for money, I do get some jobs from the locals who visit the club. This last week, for example, the band played at the Dorothy Chandler only because it was heard at the spot during a free gig. Still, playing for nothing is a rub.

-Ken

I live and work (mainly) on the Isle of Wight, a small island of the south coast of England.
I run a Dixieland Band and I try NEVER to play without payment. We get asked to do a lot of Charity events and unless it’s something that means a lot to the Band we always ask for payment. Yes, we offer a discounted rate depending when the gig is to take place but we find that we are appreciated more. Other Bands who offer their services free of charge often get messed about.
Personally, I do go out and play at jam sessions just for the fun of playing in a different style and working with different people and I do get work from it.
My 17 year old son is a terrific Bass Player and plays with (amongst others) the National Youth Jazz Orchestra - although their gigs are paid reasonably well it often costs him more to get to a gig than he’s paid but he does it for the experience and the exposure.
In short (and about time too I hear you say) you have to look at each event and ask yourself if there’s really anything in it for you… We have to advertise ourselves and sometimes playing for no money is the cheapest way of doing that !!

Sebastian, thanks for the input. Here are a few thoughts though…

I think its good to get a commitment from the club owner…but only $20 per man? I think it works best when you don’t give the club owner the idea that the guys will work for less than minimum wage. If you are going to start lower, maybe have an escalating pay scale per gig or something. When you put it in the club owners mind that only $20 per guy is needed, then that is the highest they think they will pay.

Your idea #2 could work fine, after all they do it in Las Vegas - that kind of thing sells. But you may turn off some of the ladies in the crowd, and also I’m not real keen into the whole idea of “passing the hat”. that always seemed to me like we are begging the crowd to “throw us a bone” so to speak. Its kind of like panhandling and people hate that generally. Puts pressure on them too. Better to just have a $2 cover or something. Most people won’t balk at a small cover charge of a $1 or 2.

Your 3rd idea is a really good one, and one that Rob Parton and his band in chicago do every month at their gig at Fitzgeralds. It brings the parents and fans of the kids out, gives the kids a chance to play in a real club, and it also brings a sense of community to the whole thing. Be sure you find good HS bands though, but not better than your own band!

a unison shout chorus? hmmmm, depends on the tune, but I’ll see what I can do on that for a future chart.

HEY JIM, I’LL BE HAPPY TO ADD A FEW LINES ABOUT
OUR SUCCESS STORIES. AS YOU MIGHT KNOW, I HAVE A 20 PIECE BIG BAND WITH 17 MUSICIANS AND 3 VOCALISTS. I ALSO EMPLOY A TICKET LADY AND A SETUP GUY THAT ALL ARE ON THE PAYROLL.
MY TOTAL PAYROLL USUALLY RUNS A LITTLE OVER $1800.00 ( EIGHTEEN HUNDRED BUCKS ) AND WE JUST FINISHED OUR LAST GIG WHICH HAS LASTED A LITTLE OVER SIXTEEN YEARS. WE “NEVER” PLAY FOR FREE. THE METHOD I HAVE USED IS EMAIL. WHEN PEOPLE COME TO THE DANCE WE ASK THEM TO FILL OUT A “DOOR PRIZE SLIP” WHICH ALSO INCLUDES A PLACE FOR THEIR EMAIL ADDRESS. WE NOW HAVE AN EMAIL ADDRESS LIST OF OVER 900 WHICH GIVES US A MAILING OF 900 TO ADVERTISE OUR NEXT GIG.
THINGS ARE A LITTLE SLOW BECAUSE OF THE ECONOMY
BUT WE ARE SURVIVING. IT HAS BEEN A WONDERFUL 16 YEARS AND WE HOPE TO MAKE IT TO 20 BEFORE I
EXPIRE. GOOD LUCK TO ALL AND I HOPE THIS MIGHT WORK FOR YOU………JOHNNY MACK
WEBSITE…..WWW.THEMACKPACK.COM
ME AT: JOHNNYMACK@WOH.RR.COM

I lead a big band on Long Island and will only play for free for charity events that do not pay the members of the organization.
We play at a senior center every Friday for free.
I will not book libraries that charge admission
or any organization that charges for less than $100 a man.
Any body can find non paying gigs.

Jim,

Thanks for the invitation to join this discussion. I appreciate your interest in my opinion.

I gig my band at two coffee houses here in Kansas City twice a month on average, for hat money only. I don’t net enough to pay the guys, just enough to occasionally buy a chart from pdfjazzmusic.com and keep my website up and running. We’re really just a rehearsal band anyway, a group that consists of a few local pros, a few UMKC students and a number of good local amateurs. The coffee houses serve as our rehearsal venues.

That being said, it is important to me that I don’t interfere with, or take a potential paying opportunity away from the local professional player. Some would argue that my taking any gig for free is taking away opportunity, but I would argue to the contrary. Perhaps a topic for another blog. It is also important to note that I sought out, carefully so, the coffee houses, they didn’t come after me.

That aside, when I am approached to play an event I am always asked what I charge. Most folks don’t expect to get a band for free; much less an 18 piece big band and, therefore are always willing to pay something. It has been decided amongst several of the local pros that a $30.00 per hour rate is what is required to secure their talents for a gig. I base my initial quotes off of that figure. If that proves to be too expensive I negotiate to a degree, but not past an agreed upon minimum amount of $45.00 per head for a maximum two hour event with no expectation other than we show up to play; meaning dress is at our discretion as is the play list. I never agree to take a job for free simply because I play two coffee houses for free and I never agree to play for less than the minimum unless it is a benefit that the band, as a collective, feels is worthy.

I don’t make my living off gigging my band; I put it together simply for the fun of it. Every dollar I earn from a paying gig gets split evenly amongst the bands 19 members. The two venues I play monthly for free, hat money only, help to pad the band’s bank account and keep the band well rehearsed for those few paying opportunities we do get. We have been asked to play benefits for free and have done so on just a few occasions; all for local homeless shelters in the KC area. Again, most folks don’t expect to get a big band for free and are always willing to pay something.

One of the reasons for starting our combo was too many folks were unwilling to pay the money required to secure the services of the big band. Not wanting to walk away from a payday, the combo was started.

There is one question that I’d like to ask you; is there room in the jazz community for a band such as mine? One that doesn’t have the talent to secure the premium venue yet has the passion for the music. Can a band such as mine co-exist in your world while not being a detriment to your livelihood? I hope so, because you do so love playing this music!

My two cents; I hope they are of value to you.

Brian Oehlert
Moon City Big Band

Well Hello Jim,
I am calling from little old NZ Christchurch the country at the bottom of this very small earth we all live on.
To answer your questions regarding playing for free.
Your question does open a can of worms!
With all of my 44 years of playing all around Australia and NZ playing at Thousands of great Venues, I have only played for free three times and was to land 3 gigs other than that I will certainly will not start playing for free unless a situation cames up to land that type of gig.And then I will negotiate a fear price after it?
In my professional opinion why should a musicians prositute them selves for their art.Do you ever see a prositute, Doctor,and other professional people giving away their profession for free I don’t think so!
It is such a pity that having to do freebies
and I do know it is becoming very aparent today that Managers of venues don’t like talking about having to pay out their hard earned cash for a band.I do find it always hard to be paid after you have been playing a 3/4 hour gig.When you approch their office afterwards most managers they seem to disappear for some reason.Some gigs you may have asked for cash up front then they will give you a post dated Chq! “Bloody annouying”
I am quite sure many musicians have had this happen to them.
One comment and this does have to be said I am sick and tied of all the Poly Tech Jazz Schools in my country. They seem to be turning out secord rate musicians with absolutely no music experience to entertain the people.There may be one or two people that do come out of these schools that do shine but not to many.The music teachers really don’t care as they are all on good wages and a life times employment from the NZ Governmen.Many of them don’t get music work outside their employment.I wonder why? For the population of NZ 4 million people there are to many Jazz Schools.Feelings from many Musicians there should be one only Jazz School for the country.
I do know many musicians talk about these schools with bitter sweet taste.
The other very annoying factor these young musicians hot shots while they are in these schools do go out to under cut and play for many gigs @$25.00 and perhap for free.So when one approches a venue manager for that gig this is what you are up against, so I just walk away from it.
But I do know it does not take long for that manager to contact me asking for me to bring my 4 psc group in at my set price.
My feelings if I take my axe out of it’s case I want to be earning at least $150.00 NZ Gross.And the NZ Dollar is worth nothing on the scale of Dollars world wide.
The other nice factor I am the only Jazz Clarinetist in NZ Playing all the Goodman,Shaw,Herman and Fountain Jazz, so this gives me a good edge over any other young musician coming out of these schools.
We all know that the Jazz follower do not support the Jazz Groups they always turn up to listen if it is for free but then sit on a glass of orange juice or a glass of water, this does not help the owner or the band.
For the band to be paid the owner must sell at least sell $2,000.00 worth of booze over the bar.If he does not,then band will have to go.

We have at this time a Big Band Festival I do understand there are 6 /7 Big Bands taking part,I would think that none of the musicians are being paid.Yet the Venue owners will be rubbing their hands together all the way to the BANK.It is so wrong why should they.It is about time that the Jazz Musician stood firm and said no more.
I know most Jazz Festivals from around the world most musician must get them selves their with out any assistance for travel cost and accommodation and yet the Venue Owners,Airlines and Accommodation people are making all the dollars.With out us there would be no festival.
This is why this great art is dieing a very slow death!
I do hope this will help you in your quest.
A little quotation:
“If it was not for Venetian Blinds it would be Curtains for the lot of us”.
Kind Regards
Jeff Bradley

I lead a 20 piece big band here in Cleveland for the past 45 years. We mix it up with jazz and oldies and find that it works quite well. It took some time to get where we’re at but the name is well established. Yes we have to bend with regards to money. There are gigs that pay $20 to $125 per man but we take them all just to play. We have several venues that feature us on a weekly schedule for $25 to $60 per man. If we were to play just Jazz we wouldn’t be playing much. Audiences love the mix of the old hits and some jazz…it just works! Our gal vocalist knows how to get to the crowd and is a great asset which really adds to our appeal. I don’t do small groups although I did a dixie thing for four years at one spot inbetween big band gigs. I only do the big band thing now and at 67 years old it just keeps growing. If you want to play take what you can…play for the people and you’ll do well and still have fun doing it!

Jim,
I’ve allready explained the situation over here but there are some small groups piano tenor bass and drums that are able to get
paying gigs (I am unaware of the price) but would imagine that its just enough for a couple of beers. Thay have a venue (bar restaurant once week because the other days they are occupied with Kareoke singers with recorded backings and anything else that the audience would lke to see while having a meal or just a drink.If the audience is not happy well you are out on your butt.
Their are 4 or 5 big bands in my area and only one gets a monthly dance gig and a payment of which I am unaware of the price. Its an extremely good big band with ex professionals from the U.K. who have retired and want to blow
If they get paid all the better. The bands have a raffle during the interval which makes up for their troubles.
The only safe way is the local town hall jazz
festivals and they bring the best of everything. AND you can be sure they are well paid. Immediately or later on or ever. I am unaware of ths but many american groups come over. We even had a famous american jazz band.
In other words if you are of a good quality you’ll be paid and it is up to the individuals themselves to fix the price they think they are worthy of. For free NEVER but there are so many musicians wanting work it can be difficult and Venue owners will go for the
cheapest which does’nt mean to say the worst?
Hope this all makes sence but as an amateur I
thought I’d like to state my opinion even if it of no value.

Jim,
Eleven years ago I started a big rehearsal band at the age of 68! My idea was (and is) to play the best charts we could get, have fun, and realise that the world has changed. We play Kenton, Herman, Rich, Basie and anything good that we like. The band has 19 pieces and me. I’m the guy standing up in front, waving my arms and nobody is paying any attention. We are just East of Sacramento in the Roseville/Rocklin area, rehearse every Thursday (sometimes good…some times bad!), and love every minute of it! Some very good musicians, some not so good. We only play in public a few times a year. Maybe because I think we should be paid $2000.00, at least! But the joy of playing with guys who’ve played with Kenton, Rich, Herman or even the Glenn Miller Orch make this great fun. We make no pretenses of making money for it. It’s just a wonderful thing to do! Incidentally, I love your ‘Arrilla del mar’ chart. We’re on course to buy a bunch of charts from you soon. As soon as my rich uncle…oh, well…

By the way, the death of Bob Florence hit me hard. I was a fan of his from the late ’50’s when I worked for Tower Records! (I later became a Vice-President and retired from Tower in ‘95) We’ll miss Bob Florence, his wonderful charts and distictive piano!

I’m in Canada, in the greater Toronto area. There used to be a great deal of gigs, then a few theatre gigs, then pretty much everything dried-up. I’m still managing to work a couple times a week, but seldom for free and often in a duo. I even charge with the local university big band that I conduct. I have developed an aphorism (or perhaps a trite saying)that could describe the dilemna of playing for free:
“Remember,the pay never goes up!”

Hi Jim, greetings from Thornbury UK.
The bands I play in work as follows:
1. A saxophone septet. Only play for charity and never take a personal payment.
2. Big band. Don’t receive personal payments but any money we aere paid goes to band funds.
3. Saxophone band. We pay to play for charity.
Musical director gets a fee.
4. Swing band. we pay to play and never receive personal payment.

Keep up the good work,
regards
Richard.

Jerry, that was well put. I think those of us that simply love trying to master the art of jazz never even thought about making money at it for years after we started playing our instruments.

Contrast that with someone who practices law or medicine. Imagine telling them that they will study practice their skill for decades - and maybe they will get paid once in awhile. Any sane person would never do that - unless you love it so much that you would do it even if you didn’t get paid.

I remember hearing Michael Jordan some years back saying that if he didn’t get paid to play basketball he would still play for free. I’m sure Tiger Woods feels the same way. It just so happens they don’t have to play for free because of the millions that can be made as a superstar in those sports.

Unfortunately, I guess society needs golf and basketball more than great jazz players. But in the end its the challenge that keeps us practicing, and that will never change.

NO jazz musicians shouldn’t play for free UNLESS they feel they owe someone a favour or if they are in the mood to get up and play, otherwise jazz is an orphan, always has been and most likely always will be. For some very wierd reason jazz musicians are often expected to play for free or well underpayed. This is not clear to me at all. We woodshedded our axes, learned the shit, and have the same bills to pay as “normal” people. Does an electrician install wiring for free? Does a car mechanic fix your car for free? I, as a musician just want to earn enough to be able to afford my electrician and mechanic.

I used to be in the Navy band and I was always perplexed by the attitude of the horn players. We had a group that played Tower of Power tunes and some classic soul with horns on pratically evry tune. It is funny that you mention 50 dollars a man because the first gig we ever landed paid exactly that. So we had the option of playing that gig on Sunday nights, in the gaslamp, with free drinks, 50 bucks, and plenty of walkby traffic to build our following, or we could just practice at the band room, no beer, no babes, and no money.
I was able to get club owners to come see the band and that gig basically got us all of our other gigs.
We also did some free gigs. We used the money from the tip jar to buy all the equipment we needed.
I think Jack Mootz is an idiot. If you are doing all the extra work, why pay yourself less. You should make more. And you really don’t have much of a team there.
I can honestly say everytime I have played for free I have ended up making more money than I would have charged. You should try it. Get out of the practice room.

Hi Folks, we have a Big Band out here on the island that recently celebrated 30 years in existence with several of the founding members still going strong.. We play primarily for public service, whether it is for a spot filler in the rotunda down at the port in the summers (for tips) or for benefits for the schools or the senior citizens center or for medical expenses, that type of things but out of that we are hired for things like wedding anniversaries or other celebrations for which the band takes the proceeds and reinvests in equipment. We generally eat for free at such events so our in joke is we’ll play for food!
We practice on Tuesday nights and lay off for holidays and such, it keeps the passion for playing alive I think. So far no one has really explored the possibility of making money because it is $11 a ticket to go off island (RT)on the ferry so adding gas and vehicles just gets too silly to consider.
Some of the members offshoot to form smaller bands, the german oompah band for Oktoberfest and a Dixieland band for the 4th of July parade etc.. Probably the only folks making money here are the performers at the community theater, mostly imports from offisland and the R&R bands in the bars and legion club..
We do get a lot of satisfaction from playing and from supporting the community at large and to some degree individuals in financial trouble, but as for making money, I am afraid we only get fed… but sometimes very well! Ken

It’s been interesting reading the various ‘takes’ on this question of playing for free.

I think all of us have done this from time to time-especially for charity situations.

Here in Charlotte, NC, there are a number of organized jazz groups (big and small) which perform in a wide variety of venues. One of these, appropriately called ‘Vintage’ is in reality an offshoot of a community-college band which rehearses twice weekly, and for a year and a half played for swing dancing each Monday night at a club in town. The sometimes-twenty-piece big band’s pay depended upon the attendance-usually, but not always more than the number in the band itself!! There would be nights when each player would go home with $12 or $13 in their pockets; others where players would take home $30-$40. A lot of discussion among the band members usually resulted in some saying they resented having to play for for so little, but others admitting they were not playing for the money, but for the opportunity to perform their ‘art’, rather than just constantly rehearsing it. Lately, the club owner, after hiking the admission fee, had to scale back-using the band only one Monday night each month.

Another big ‘rehearsal’ band- The Charlotte Jazz Orchestra(also connected with the junior college) plays once or twice a semester, doing more-challenging charts, and its players rehearse once weekly and play for the satisfaction of performing upscale charts.

A third big band in town- A Sign of The Times, performs in a couple of different formats–as a full big band, or as a combo formed by several members of the big group. This group rehearses regularly, and plays a little less regularly, but usually for money.

The smaller jazz groups here eke out some money playing in a number of regional clubs.
A revolving trio plays every night at a Cajun-style restaurant, but the money-while helpful-is not enough to support oneself.
As elsewhere, these clubs come and go. Making a decent living playing jazz is difficult here -as it appears to be worldwide.

I’ve played as a guest in a lot of different countries in North and South America, Europe, Africa, and Asia. And everywhere, I’ve found both players and fans who love jazz, but nowhere have I found many groups comfortably making a living playing it. Ironically, jazz seems to have more fans in countries other than the USA (notably France and Japan), but I suspect that, rather than not perform in front of an audience, many players opt for PLAYING, even if it does not support an individual or his or her family.

Depending upon club owners to advertise and otherwise market jazz is unrealistic. I believe successful jazz players must be ‘hustlers’–building their own audiences, keeping their music fresh, and being dependable with regards to the gigs they DO get.

I’m certainly no Michael Jordan or Tiger Woods (as another writer mentioned) with their millions already made, but like them
I would play for nothing (and sometimes do), if I couldn’t play otherwise. I love the music that much.

From Topeka, Kansas: I am pleased, amazed, and encouraged by the response of “Big Bands” in action. Swing and Jazz is not dead. Ray Rathert and I present a 14 piece Big Band. We do not play for free. In our band we have retired music teachers, active music teachers, and Ray and me who are retired from other professions. We play 8 or 10 times a year for various venues. Our next February job is at a private club, Top of the Tower. In March, we play for a private Dance Club. We do weddings, conventions, anniveraries, birthdays, and private parties. We are hoping to develop a series of Sunday afternoon Tea Dances. It is an honor to have devoted musicians who are loyal to what we do, and appreciate being paid.

Report from English man living in Dusseldorf Germany:
Music is not a profession it’s a way of life (some great conductor said this)
Well I’ve been earning a living in music all my life, now 67 and still
Out there performing,
The question should we perform Jazz for free? Is a good question?
Because reading all the blogs it seems like this problem is global,
As the economic climate has changed vastly in the world, it has become
Harder for the Jazz Cafes, Bistros and small restaurants to make their ends meet,
And those places are where Jazz combos a few years ago (maybe 15)
Had a platform (and a free meal when you were lucky)
And I know quite a few of those bar owners, a lot of them would dearly love to
Have live music (called bar jazz here) but to pay €300, oo (around $380.oo USA)
For trio or quartet for example wipes out their profit, in a place that holds about 60 people, another element that had a drastic impact was the “No Smoking” law that in a restaurant or bar where food was served (there is ways round it but for the most it is too expensive)
But it came in two years ago and music went out!
So what has happened here is there is no platform any more for the jazz musician,
Young or old.
It’s quite expensive here in this part of Europe and if you put a cover charge on the door
It works to a point, but it better not be too heavy €5.oo is about as high as one can risk.
Should we perform Jazz for nothing???
I am Guilty, I’ve done it but as a promotion for jazz or for a good cause,
One has to make up ones own mind about that,
Jam sessions (Scam sessions) my name for it, is when a bar owner makes it public
That you can come along and Jam there’s a piano here and drums etc come every Thursday
Leads to very Chaotic and unmusical results, I do organised sessions when possible,
Say as a Rhythm section of pro players and then sort the players out as the evening goes on
But in these cases the trio Bass drums guitar or piano I insist have to be paid,
This tends to attract a large public; there are a lot of young players who want to show their skills if they get a chance, and they and all their entourage spend money on the bar
Say no more.
One that seems to be (but is not) I often work Duo, Singer or sax with guitar or even one’o
But that’s more to do with earning a living I think,
Jazz lives from the interaction of a group of musicians, be it New Orleans, Bebop Hard Bop
Fusion Or Free, and those of us who can should do our best to” hand it down “
An Idea I came up with and it worked maybe a useful Idea for some of you readers
I approached a local Café/ bistro (seats about 100) with an Idea “the Cotton Club”
(They are all over the world).the concept was from Monday through to Saturday live music in the place, I direct a local big band as well (just to put you in the picture)
Monday Big Band, Tuesday New Orleans night, Wednesday Straight ahead Piano trio with a tough tenor sax, Thursday myself Jazzy R&B, Friday A Ballad singer with a trio,
Saturday Big Band again featuring Guys out of the band and some of the musicians
That had performed in the week. Most of the combos were made up out of the guys
From the big band.
How did it work??
The owner went in on the game and put some start money in, one of the guys from the big band went to the local “Butcher Baker and the candlestick maker” asking for sponsoring in small sums of money,
And in return they would get the usual advertising (we started the advertising nine weeks before) Ok that wasn’t the end,
Each night the concerts were two times one hour from nine till twelve,
After the first hour a long break so the bar and waiters could get Stuck in,
And the a lady dressed appropriate and a top hat went round and asked for donations and also sold a whole bunch of CDs for individual musicians, when the week was over I could pay every musician € 80.oo per performance so if he got on two performances he was happy,
For the owner was good business, she also did a Louisiana menu starting at eight in the evening we decorated the place appropriately as well,
I’d created a venue and did have excellent support from the musicians, (were not playing for nothing but way under normal tariff) but now through this action there is a jazz night there
A couple of nights a month.
It was done in September 06, was done again in 07, in 08 No smoking!!!
So I think we have to create gigs, not just hang around waiting for the venue to appear
Put Cotton club Dusseldorf Destille in google : see what comes up

My band here in Beijing has a two front battle. One is that most people don’t even know what big band music is, and two, they aren’t really willing to pay for anything, much less something they don’t really know about.

As a result, there are two kinds of gigs that we do, and I call them Art and Work. Work gigs are usually corporate events, embassy balls, company meetings ets. These pay some money usually and we never do these kind of things for free.

The other kind is Art. These kind of gigs are for people that just enjoy the music and appreciate the fact that there is a live big band at all. We usually just take a door cover cut for these events, and it usually breaks down to 10-20 USD equivalent per person. It isn’t big money by any means, but it is something.

A pseudo third category is promotion. We do these for free. Media gigs for example, where we trade performance for advertisement. These always end up being worth it because it gets the word out, and in a place where there is no word about big band in the first place, any exposure is good exposure.

It is a shame that live music is not really respected the way it used to be, but there will always be people with real culture that do appreciate the art of performance, and it is for these people that we continue to play. Someday we may all be replaced by computers, but as long as my A is an A and not a mechanically generated 440hz then I’ll be happy.

We have a Chritian big band that plays secular and Christian big band music. We play churches, nursing homes , retirement centers, banquets, conventions, Etc. We play by donations only (suggeted depending on the clients abilty to pay) To give a church or old folks a fun night of music we will play for nothing if they can’t pay. It is the joy we get from making them happy that counts. We leave things in God’s hand to meet our expenses!

I’m in a 16 pc big band composed of retired pros and retired music teachers (and a few young bucks in case any of us old farts needs a heart transplant) When I started in the business I made more money as a union musician than I did teaching school. These days we’re lucky to get $25 or 30 a man. People love us and are always impressed but are never willing to pay us as much as they would pay a neighborhood kid to cut their grass.

A few things have contributed to the demise of live music up here in Canada ( as elsewhere) and I’m not sure there is a solution.

1. Disc Jockeys ( who sometimes get $600 that we would be happy to get)
2. Music schools who put together äll star bands and go out for nothing.
3. Young rockers who will play for cheap bar owners for “exposure”.
4. The quality of music that is available free on radio, T.V., the internet, i-pods etc.

I’m afraid this noble profession has morphed into an expensive hobby.

To answer the original question. No way should anyone play for free. I often remind customers that they have a team of 16 professionals working for them for 3 or 4 hours and they should be happy to pay them $2000 or so.

Hi Jim, here´s the deal in Germany,nobody plays for free a Jazz gig here pays between $ 175.- and $ 250.- bucks per person, we work usually with 6 or 7 which includes a singer he/she usually gets a little more. I can´t believe you have to play for so little in the U.S.hey man this is an American invention !!

The way it works here is this, No cash - No Music ! I have around 50 gigs a year and I know people who do much more. That´s it !

No, Never play for free in a commercial situation. You are the attraction. Why should the liquor delivery person get paid and the musician does not? A good player has invested as much in his or her craft as any other professional who always get paid. Every aspect of your skills and talents cost you money, so it has a value.

A musician should know how much his or her skills are worth and charge for the explitaion of those skills

Don’t think my previous comment was properly submitted. Just as well, it was long-winded. Playing for free? Yes, selectively for many reasons. Spreads the word, more activity etc. The best leaders have to be astute with business. In today’s market, I think four-walling is best. It can be done in several ways. Complete 4-walling means the group takes all of the risk, advertising, tickets (if sold) with no fee whatsoever for the gig. If handled properly, this can generate greater financial benefits for the group than a fee. You can also split this up, depending on the degree of interest of the promoter, club or venue owner.

We have a 16-piece big band located in the rust belt of Michigan. We try not to play free gigs, but if there is a chance of gaining other paying gigs from a one-time freebee, we will do it. We try to keep the freebees to one per year. Honestly, we play for fun, not the money. BUT…if you always play for cheap or free, you will get the reputation that you can be had for little or no money, and the good paying jobs will not come.

You can should play for free on rare occasions .1. for your own enjoyment
when you have great musicians. 2. only as an audition (1 time) to let an owner hear and see what you have ( CD’s do not work!). Thats IT!! We
musicians have one major problem that
has existed since the 70’s.

DISC JOCKEYS

There are always going to be people who play for little or nothing for various reasons. Sometimes it’s because they don’t have sufficient talent, and are paid accordingly. Sometimes it’s because they don’t have the ability or desire to make it a business activity. I don’t accept the argument that it’s the club owner’s fault or an inferior cultural environment here in the USA. Many more musicians make a good living here from playing, than in Europe. If we want to make money playing music we have to accept responsibility for doing whatever it takes to achieve that. I’m not going to play for less than what I need to support my family because making music is my livelihood and always has been. Everyone else do what you want, it’s a free country - but remember the more you value your self and your craft, the more we will all be valued.

Play for free? Damn right. If you work hard to be as good as you can be and you have the passion, what good does it do to only play in your basement? Live life!

Charlie

Hey Jim,
Yes, yes, yes they should give you something for your showing up.
We usually take a small flat rate or a percentage of the door (which is ever greater) based on a head count and we do this only when we’re starting a new location just to get things off the ground. Otherwise tell them to buy a CD and play it as background music, gas is to expensive.
anyway gotta’ check out,
Loved the question.
Keep the peace and share the love,
T.

In Indianapolis we have two jazz clubs that pay the musicians. They charge a cover based on the performing group. The cover for Nationally and Internationally known artists is higher than that for locally based groups. Other restaurants feature jazz on certain days of the week or weekends but most do not charge a cover.

Personally, I play for free sometimes but only for a charitable organization or function. A commercial enterprize should expect to pay musicians something. Perhaps it is only a small amount that only covers gas. But, they should pay something for live music.

Hi Jim, hope everything is well. Jim I’m presently living in Port Saint Lucie Florida. The Jazz gigs here are very limited, however; we NEVER play for free. Sometimes there is a two men gig $55 a piece or one man band for $100 but we never play for free.
Take care.
Robert Navarro

Hi, Jim
I am Ksenia
I am representing my “Wasabi and Sushi” band
We have never been playing for free. But because of that we play once or twice per month. What about all other stuff I sing pretty
often just for an appreciation.

Hi Jim:
even though I’m not a full time musician anymore, I still maintain my vocal, trumpet and acoustic bass chops in pretty good shape. I would NEVER play for free. If a club owner cannot afford at least $50-75 bucks a man then he’s not entitled to have live music. I live in New York and there’s some cats on Long Island who have a Tuesday night jam session.They have a very solid rhythm section and a few horn players show up and jam. I go there most Tuesdays and do play for free but as a guest. The owner is a jazz lover and he has built this night to where he’s not making a killing but he’s not losing $s either. I think playing for free only leads to more playing for free. The best thing to do in my opinion is to have a CD and try to get a gig somewhere and work with a club owner who’s willing to try it for a couple of months to see “how it goes.” But some money should always be involved. As far as big bands are concerned, I think they have become a “luxury” for club owners. I think playing in a big band that is tight and composed of good players and that has a good book is a total pleasure. So, for the sake of enjoying oneself there has to be a compromise. I such a case, and depending on the size of the group, I think $20-$30 a man is about all one would expect to get. Even the cats who play in the (Village) Vanguard Band only make about $50 a man. I personally would PAY to be in that band. Seriously, I’m sure there have been big bands who have built a following and have been able to make more money per man. Music is a commodity, not a necessity and that’s what makes it so difficult sell it. As an art form, the big names in jazz are the ones who are always going to make the big bucks. But that has been true of the “big stars” in all of the arts throughout history.

Always a pleasure, Jim. You’re a good guy.
It all goes back to necessity v. commodity. People don’t have to go listen to a big band, or go to an art exhibit, or a movie, etc. But if you must have an appendectomy or else, then that’s the whole point. I will always play music mostly for my own enjoyment and do consider myself extremely fortunate to have been exposed to music and the arts by my parents from an early age.
Keep on playing, my man!!!

here is my opinion, in a perfect world, no………but in our world, ya….i have an 8 piece band that does a lot of free gigs, let me explain, not dances or parties……we do library, outside stuff…..all my guys play well and are professional people, docs, computer geeks and the like……..they just want to play..we rehearse one nite a week, and do our free stuff on that night…we write or arrange our stuff, and get a kick out of hearing it and playing for people…………..don

No free gigs please!

I’m a jazz guitarist from the California now working in Central Mexico, I work with a jazz quartet 4 nights a week, performing TWO sets per night, each night and I earn the equivalent of $250.00 dollars.

Why is jazz is appreciated so much more outside the USA?

Hi Jim,
it´s a very good question and needs to be brought to the surface.
I am a professional musician , began playing jazz and gigs from the age of 13. I will be honest, in the beginning I was very hungry to get a sit in anywhere or play a venue whether it paid or not as this was part of my schooling. The day you decide that this is your profession is the day you NEVER play again for free unless it´s your decision for a very special reason. The word profession means what your chosen path of career is.
In other words, YOU as the musician must have a fee and you can not back down from this, even if you fear the chance of loosing a job because the the other party is not willing to pay you minimum wage.
The problem as I see it is, their are to many musicians out there playing for free which makes it a harder task for us professionals to negotiate realistic fees. I mean seriously, when do you ever walk in to a doctors office, or walk in to a restaurant, get on a bus, visit your dentist, get your haircut and ask them to reduce the fee??? Respect please… Phil

Our combo was formed primarily for the purpose of playing jazz for our own enjoyment. We play occasionally for private parties and even less frequently at “club dates.” For the former we often do not get paid at all, although we sometimes get a few dollars which we just split evenly. For the “club dates” we may get as much as seventy dollars each which, of course, is always welcome. If a combo exists for the primary purpose of making money, I would not expect them to play for free except in cases where they may be getting exposure that will lead to future engagements that pay. We do not seek to displace any group that plays for a living or to supplement their incomes. We would not accept a “free” gig that seems to try to use us for that purpose. However, we will play for free as a chance to gain exposure or to help out individuals or small organizations that would otherwise be unable to offer jazz music to their participants.

We are a Civic Group and generally we do not charge a fee. You can donate to our Equipment and Charts Fund, but we are connected…to Roswell City and the New Mexico Military Institute!

Our Jazz Orchestra is very large for this area…18-22 pieces, depending on who shows for the gig! That would be real hard to get anyone to pay any decent money. Roswelll is only 50,000 or 60,000 people. This depends on who is counting and if it is an Election Year! Generally, we do get a “donation”, but we rarely ask for it. The next gigs are in October for the Roswell Jazz Festival.

We will probably be the only ‘free’ band playing! Oh well, I just enjoy playing and being back in the Music mainstream after a 51 year layoff. I kept up with what was going on through my cousin who is a Trumpet player in Los Angeles! I enjoy your site. Keep up the good work.

The pokies (you call them slots) have ruined South Australia in more ways than one. I can still hear the rhetoric: “There will bands in every Hotel” and there was too. For about one week. Then the publicans realised people were going to come to their hotel to lose on the machines whether there are musicians or not. Australians lose 10 BILLION dollars on the pokies EVERY year and that represents a lot of federal tax so turning back the clock is unlikely. Regarding playing for free, the short answer is no why would I?
Not even the “first” one.
It’s like going to the pub/restaurant/coffee house owner. “Look,I’ll have a 3 course meal with drinks thrown in free of charge, and If I like it, I’ll pay you next time I’m here and eat something.” You’d just get laughed at.
Long answer is I’ve played at lots of one-off gigs for nothing but not a regular gig.
It’s still surprising with some peoples attitude to pay for music as if “they do it ’cause they love it.” You look at the money spent on weddings. People will pay more for their flowers than their music. Hire cars for 1 hour? more than the organist, trumpet voluntary (no pun intended) player and solo vocalist combined. By a long way! Don’t even get me started on the costs associated with the reception! The band will get about what they spend on decorations…..

Hey Jim: Thanks for the blog site and the ideas coming from everyone! I’m part of an 18-piece big-band that was founded in 1965. (I’m one of the new members, only with the band for one year so far.) One thing we tried this year for promotion purposes was to perform a ‘freebie’ that was SPECIFICALLY marketed to event promoters, booking agents, social directors of retirement communities, veteran groups, festival promoters, tour operators, conference planners and MEDIA! This event was NOT open to the public! The premise we used was to CELEBRATE the band’s 45th anniversary of entertaining the community (they’d never done anything like ‘blowing their own horn’ before, sorry for the pun)as well as to offer a ‘LIVE AUDITION OPPORTUNITY’ for booking agents of all kinds. We secured a FREE auditorium location by offering free tickets to members (only) of a large seniors’ community (which ensured a large, appreciative audience as well as their free ‘in-house’ promotion, volunteers for set-up/ dismantling, etc. and liability insurance coverage as they were listed as the promoters of the event). We specifically asked the media to publish their editorial stories and photos AFTER the event as we knew we had only enough room for about 200 which included the senior club members (giving them a maximum of 100 tickets), invited guests (all those involved in booking music acts previously mentioned) and the media. Special invitations with follow up calls were made to ensure these folks either came themselves or sent someone in their place. Such invitations made it clear that this person was considered special enough to be invited to a ‘closed promotional event’, so all the calls I made were received gratefully by the recipients (some of them were quite flattered to be included)! It drew even more media coverage as raffle tickets and food was sold to raise money for the Haiti relief efforts, qualifying the event for more reason for the press to cover the event and promote the band.

We don’t do events for free normally, however, the band were in agreement with this as it served a specific purpose, providing a special ‘angle’ necessary to gain a LOT of media exposure… so much so that I held off the opportunity from one seniors newspaper to spread out the coverage we got (including cable t.v. which allowed us free video footage to use on our upcoming website, worth a lot of money done with such professional equipment)! Bottom line was we did in fact, get quite a number of bookings that agreed with our hourly rates ($400 per hour for registered charity events or $600 per hour for any other events). The only other exception to our rates is when we work with a promoter, partnering together to CREATE an event, sharing the proceeds either by a per ticket fee or other arrangement. Those types of arrangements are best done when an event is started ‘from scratch’ (with no audience guaranteed without spending a lot of time, energy and MONEY to promote it). Otherwise, you have a situation where the word gets out that you don’t have a set fee structure.

I’ve spent an incredible amount of time in marketing our band this past year and it’s really paid off, including the time building an email list. That one event alone was a HUGE amount of work and it was timed to be early in the year (February… rather risky for weather here, but thankfully it worked) so that we could be considered for booking throughout the rest of this year.

All is not dead with big bands receiving pay, it’s just that it’s an awful lot of work to find and secure these jobs. Even then, the amount paid to each person isn’t big, considering the time and travel involved.

Good luck to all!
Maggie

Interesting you should ask. We do not have clubs in Spokane that offer jazz but we do a lot of one night jobs. We ask for $100 each and get that or close to it most of the time. We have a rule about donation jobs. If the sponsor is doing a fund raiser for a recognized charity or fund, we will ocassionaly play for free. The last few years we have played for the local Alzhiemers fundraiser. On average, I would guess we do two free per year. We would not ever play for free for a commercial outfit that was in business for profit.

Our groups are 15 - 20 players. we play for free at churches, VA hospitals, Nursing homes, Assisted living and even a library. we also take food if they offer instead of money. We can also break down to about 12 for a combo gig if needed. our prices range from a take at the door divided evenly among the player, or $200 an hour and even $300 if we drive a long distance. We currently have a monthly gig to maintain our appearance and music to the public. I am a trumpet player, that doesn’t stay on trumpet all the time, ex tuba for polka’s if needed…i welcome any questions from anyone…i love music and have been playing for 46+ years..thanks

Hi,

I live in Paris, France. As elswhere it’s difficult, but possible to play in clubs and festivals. Personnaly, i never play for free in a professionnal situation, except sometime as a band leader, (but my musicians are paid). If there is no money, i prefer to play less and send students on the gig.

In my opinion, shared with numerous musicians, this is a way to protect (if still possible) live performance in clubs. If most of us accept to play for free today, tomorrow, we will have to pay for playing on stage. This is allready done in some places. My two cents (no miracle!) :

- Avoid playing for free

- Make the owner of the club understand (or any employer if private performance), that there may be a sometime a serious gap between a prof. performance and a non prof. performance (sometime not, but a risk still exists).

- A good part of us have students in music, so it’s sometime possible to have “mixed projects” with pro/students players, especially in BB. This means more people in the club

- With internet, it’s possible to develop a network in witch it is easy to share information about concerts, special event, album,…

- An idea should be to make some groups exchange : You come to play with your group in my country as guest in a 2 sets concert (1 or 2 or more dates), and we do the same in your country.

My two cents

Jim,
I am not a pro-musician. In fact, I don’t think I have ever made any more than 25-50 dollars for a gig. In fact, usually zero. Presently, I play for enjoyment in a couple of groups - none of which are strictly “jazz”. We play for local events and at senior’s residences, as requested, and for the fun in it.
I do belong to a jazz society in the Comox Valley on Vancouver Island, BC, Canada. It’s website is http://www.georgiastraightjazz.com. Every week, they produce a jazz night at the local Elks Club. The Elks do not charge rent: they make a few bucks on beer, etc. The crowd, usually around 150 most of the time put a few dollars into the collection plate. This money is then divided 50/50 between the group and the society. Not a lot of money but the groups do get a chance to perform in front of a live audience. Once a month, the society brings in a group from Vancouver or Victoria to play before a paying audience and they are usually paid around 50 to 100 each, depending on their requirements.
We have found this venue and this routine of having a weekly jazz gig works very well and has certainly enhanced the jazz scene here in the Comox Valley.
Yes, I believe that it is necessary play where you can and when you can. If you expect pay to play jazz in this area, you are generally out of luck.
Best wishes to you,
Ray

There is no market for the pros at this time. Work is scarce due to DJ’s.and electronic media. The music industry as a whole is in trouble. Musicians should never play for free when the club or big party host is. We are being exploited.
Working for free is for the students trying to break into the business. If you want to make big money this may not be the feild for you.

Wow this is a great site. to have a forum where many people write in for comments. Anyway..
Playing for free..I could remember at 12 and 13 many players who just dreamed about playing would play for free just to get exposure.
As an adult with adult needs and responsibilities, playing for free is not always the preferred standard. It is too bad that the musician could spend loads of time practicing then have to play for free…yuck, \the reality is that music like any other service is on the wants and needs list. If it it the trend then musicians will be compensated for their services.
I have played plenty of free gigs with an orchestra that I played in and several jazz big bands. playing was the answer. what do you do to become better performing. play play play..try not to focus on money only…experience is another thing. this isn’[t the glory days of jazz…as the 40 or 50’s were..where music was played regularly.
the age of electronics has the pluses and the minuses. recordings. are double edges.. play play play…jazz is art ..artist should be rewarded..but in the real world. many are not..

Well I know a lot of musicians that play for free, I dont any more. I play for pay so do my guys, you can play seven times a week any where for free, but that is prostuting our selves. The places that want us to play for free are doing it to make money for themselves.
they can charge a door fee that would go to the band, they make money on the drinks, some places add a surcharge of $1-3.00when the band is on which would go to the band. big band goes for $75-$150, PER MAN. HOPE THIS HELPS

lenny

Playing for free is bad on many levels.
Let’s say the band consists of five doctors that want to play just for fun and have no problem playing for free.
I go into the same club looking to book a night and now the manager or owner does not want to pay or hardly pay because of the last band who played for free.
Now the owner just stands around and watches each band play for less and less and before you know it the musician is paying the club to play.
Bob

Many of us get together to play in local pubs for free just for the fun of it. I also run a ’swing’ band which plays in a variety of locations and accepts a small donation to our funds.
Portsmouth, UK

The only free gigs I would play (and I do) are benefits. The market here in Portland OR is ruined by very young, inexperienced “players” that will work for nothing or $25/night. Most of the club owners are not interested in quality and the ones who hire better groups (rare) are interested of course in the “draw”. I’ve played many gigs for the door in my life (over 50 yrs of professional jazz playing) and usually made out quite well (where I’ve been known).
I rehearse in my living room with my trio for free. That’s it.

hi-
thanks for this great site and discussion.
i won’t comment on the topic because all the points have been well covered by the hundred plus people who responded already.
what i would like to say is- how great it is to see this ‘hot-button’ issue discussed in such a civilized and respectful way! I am in the Jazz Society of Santa Cruz County (Ca. USA) that has hundreds of musicians, pro and amateur. Our website once had a Bulletin Board that anyone could post to.
On this topic, playing for free, the comments got so hostile that we finally had to shut down the Bulletin Board altogether!
So congratulations on this blog! Our politicians could learn a lot from it about how to discuss issues on which there is disagreement.

best wishes
steve newman

We had a small bigband, but this one is finished because we can’t find any players around here. They are all windbands and classical music. But before we didn’t play for free. Now I play in a pop band and also not for free.It sounds strange to me, if the band is good you shouldn’t play for free.At the other hand a bigband is big, a lot of musicians and not every place or club can have it.But I found out years ago no money in playing Jazz. I used to play trombone in a funk jazz band, and now I play bassguitar in a popband, I got more money in a year by playing the bass than 10 years by playing jazz on trombone.If you are no teacher it is hopeless. The only reason you do it is because you enjoy it.

18 piece big band. 18 years organized. We currently play once a month at a nice venue for
dancers (we sneak in jazz stuff when we can get
away with it). Our deal is: over 70 at the gate and we get something. However, we get to use the facility for rehearsals once a week. So we
get something. Other than that we don’t play for
free unless for benefit although we only play about 4 gigs per year. We had a bar gig for a spell and played for $200. plus the “jar”, but
the owner went broke. We voted to be a dance
band and that is only way we see to make a buck. Jazz venues just don’t draw much (usually only other musicians). The young crowd
likes to dance to our music (mostly swing) but
there is a lot of competition for that also.

Hi, in my opinion groups should not play for free unless it’s for a good cause or the band uses the gig as an opportunity to market itself.

The big band Jim mentioned playing at a “high end” club should be paid something, or at least be allowed to put out a tip hat.

Hi
I have a big band and I’m not in favor of playing for free , however we have done that to promote the band , we now only play for weddings and other events that will pay a fee . I feel jazz musicians should be paid a fee for their services and talent , it’s a very difficult business but we should get some reward for for all the time and many hours of hard work put into it.

Hi Jim.. I live 6 months in New York and 6 Months in Florida. I have both a quintet and a Big Band. We do on occassions play for free, if it is a charity or street fair where a proprietor is not making money. If you play for free at a club, the percieved value is a big Zero and will pretty much ruin chances of evr getting a paying gig there. And word does spread so other club owners won’t pay you either. Just my 2 cents…..

We have a septet, trio and big band in the Michigan Ohio area and we play for little or no money to market ourselves here. We will also play for a % of the take by the club owner or even for the cover charge. It’s pretty tough these days.

I also play in Panama with various groups and we usually work out a similar deal for money and/or refreshments.

I play in a swing/blues band and we almost never play for free. The guys in that band won’t walk out the door for much less than a hundred . But thats after being together for 10 years and building a local name at many, many venues. Then there is a local rock band trying to “make it” and I played with them some 20 times for free to help out. I don’t know that they will ever get a paying gig and if they do will it turn into casuals. As far as playing straight ahead jazz there are almost no venues featuring that in nor cal once you get out of San Francisco area. If I wanted to promote that kind of band I’d focus on high end house parties, or combining with a couple of other bands for 3 bands one set each for some kind of per man fee. Only other way to go is play for free at coffee shops, bars, open areas and beg for tips. I made more money for a 3 hour union gig in 1980 (104)that I do now for a 4 hour casual (100). But if I was serious about a beginning group I’d mimic the top earning corp band around here, Tommy Castro. He played everywhere for nothing or little for years. Got a huge email list and now gets 10K for a two hour show at a city parks festival or similar event. Basically as others have said, if it’ll pay for the venue, they will do it. but if they pay 300 and make 250 for the night only an idiot will or can do that for long. K

Hi Jim, interesting question and I can see from other replies that we are all in the same boat,things aint what they used to be.
I am in 3 big bands, playing 4 or 5 times a week, mainly rehearsals, and subbing in others so I have got a good feel for the scene here in Toronto.
The bottom line here is not many big bands are paid for gigs and if they are it is usually $20 to $50 each. Small groups on the other hand are paid double that amount.
The other problem here is that there are so many bands that you take what you can get or you dont play. Some people are content to rehearse but others like myself enjoy the reaction from an audience.
One thing that seems to make a difference is having a manager who has the interest and the talent to get out and advertise and be able to talk to people face to face.
To answer the question, no we should not be playing for free unless it is for a charity, we are professionals and should be recognized as such.

Thats my rant for the day, thanks Jim.
Gord Munn

Hello there:

I’m a 67 year old drummer who has done the whole yard stick of music over my lifetime. I’ve jobbed around with small trios, quartets, and many other gig musicians throughout my lifetime. In 1991, I joined a group “A Band for All Seasons” with which I played many jobs pro-bono so to speak. In about 1994, I was asked to join the Roland Cumberland Orchestra, an outgrowth of the Tall Cedars organization and played for many Masonic organizations in Washington, D.C. area. Some were again pro-bono and others paying jobs. Roland, sorry to say, passed away in 2011 and we lost a great leader and Mason. I am presently playing with the Rockville Swing Band which is associated with the Rockville Concert Band in Rockville, MD. Most of what we do is pro-bono for the community and nursing homes. Any money we earn goes to purchasing new music and supplies.
As with any groups. There is always the question of getting paid and being professional. Most community sponsored groups don’t have that many professional jazz type musicians, but try hard to learn the music and the style. It’s quite intimidating for many, but teaching concert musicians about Jazz is also tough. Getting them to listen to each other rather than just playing notes is themost difficult.
Getting gigs is tough also. Most places want either R&R, or Blues or Country that offer booze to sell. They are low paying and most likely you’ll get a meal for free. Paying gigs usually are in the Country Club set and are top shelf requiring good music with great looks.

Paul W Hassler, Rockville, MD.